Welcome to the Community Call Podcast.
I am Melissa Travers, Director of Community here at BevNET & NOSH, with my co-host, Jackie Brugliera and Mike Schneider.
If you're enjoying the show, please follow and review us on Apple Podcasts, or your listening platform of choice.
Well, Jackie and Mike, I'm so happy to see you here today, and I'm really happy because I just finished a delicious lunch.
Isn't that the best feeling when you like finally eat?
What was your lunch?
I actually just finished lunch too.
I did too.
We can have a competition.
Who had the better lunch?
We're going to have a lunch storytelling time.
All right, Jackie, you first.
What did you have for lunch?
I had ramen.
I had miso ramen with an avocado roll.
Was that takeout or did you do ramen from a package or something?
It was takeout.
We had the office lunch today, so we all got ramen.
How come we never get ramen for our staff lunch?
I don't know.
There's a place near us called Hakata.
That's pretty awesome.
They have great ramen.
Oh, yeah, we recommend it for next week.
We should just recommend it.
Yeah, I'm so glad we had this conversation.
It could so happen.
So it sounds like I had the better lunch then.
It sounds like you did.
Although mine wasn't terrible, we got some Tucson tamales a while back, and they were in the freezer, and I found one.
They're so good.
In the back corner of the freezer?
Was it in good shape?
Oh, yeah.
What variety was it?
It was pork chili verde.
All of them are so good.
Well, I think both of you had great lunches, but I also really liked mine.
I had a bunch of leftovers, which included some broccoli and string beans from this farm that's down the street from my house.
There's this guy named Richard Robinson.
He has this farm called Hope Still Farm, and he started doing this really cool thing in the pandemic where he would list all of the vegetables he has for sale that day with the price.
You Venmo him the amount of money for your order, you text him the order, and then you go pick it up from a cooler.
But I'm really sad because...
Secret cooler?
Yes, it has your name on it and everything.
And I feel like it's even better than a traditional farm share because you don't get like two rutabagas and an eggplant.
This is also how you buy moonshine in North Carolina.
No way.
I need to move to North Carolina.
You put the money under a rock and then it appears a couple of days later.
Well, that's amazing.
I do have to say that I'm sad because the growing season in New England is almost over.
But I was picking up my order the other day and I sort of thought about the fact that this guy's been growing his vegetables regeneratively since I've known about it, but it's not something he's ever actually branded his farming methods with.
And our episode today is on regenerative agriculture, and it really is a topic and a branding that's coming to light and getting more exposure.
I was just wondering, what have you seen for regenerative agriculture and foods that bear that label?
Are there ones that stand out to you or that you really like?
One of my favorites is barnacle foods.
It combines two of my favorite things, which is kelp and hot sauce.
And they really focus on regenerative agriculture as far as marine agriculture and creating kelp farms.
So it's a really delicious product.
It has a very complex umami taste to it.
And yeah, they do a great job.
I think regenerative also is something that maybe isn't front and center for them, but it's kind of like a footnote.
And if you really are interested about it and that's important to you, you can find it.
Is it the powder?
The barnacle foods like powder that you sprinkle on things?
I don't know if they have a powder.
I've only had their bullwhip sauce, which is a hot sauce.
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah, it's really good.
Mike, how about you?
What do you think about this whole regenerative agriculture thing?
I'm just excited to be here, Melissa.
Come on, you don't have a favorite product?
When I think about regenerative, I always think of Wyke because they're trying to just have a full regenerative business everywhere.
So that'd be my favorite.
Well, I am a big fan of big picture foods.
They have olives, capers.
I think my favorite are the peppers.
So they're regeneratively grown, organic, and they're fermented.
They do a pepperoncini and a banana pepper.
You guys have probably seen them and heard about them, but man, those are so delicious.
I love banana peppers.
Yeah, me too.
That is really something.
For pepperoncini, for example, it's hard to find a version of that in the grocery store that doesn't have yellow number five and a bunch of weird stuff in it.
And I also don't know if anyone has really thought about it.
I feel like it's always something that is on the side of your salad or a condiment, but people aren't always specifically shopping for it.
So if someone's looking for it and they're looking for a better for you version, that's a great option.
Now I'm thinking of all the yellow number five I eat.
I know, I didn't even know that.
Yeah, you should have your levels checked.
The Banana Peppers made it into a sweet green salad that was a partnership between Big Picture Foods and Sweet Green.
I missed the chance to try that salad, but I bet it's delicious.
That's why that Cold Play song is always in my head.
Probably.
No, wait, what Cold Play song?
Yellow?
Yellow.
Right, right, right, right.
It was all yellow.
Yeah, it could be a problem.
You might want to get that checked out.
Actually, you would want to get that checked out anyways.
I mean, I know how to make it go away now.
No, the actual answer, though, is the cure for any earworm.
Do you know what it is, Jackie?
It's the Hawaii Five-O theme song.
It just kills any song that's in your head, and it doesn't stick around, because it's got places to be.
Can you sing a little bit?
Yeah, what is that song?
The Hawaii Five-O theme song?
One of the greatest surf rock songs of all time?
The da-da.
Oh, sure.
I do know that.
It will just take anything out.
See, I couldn't get that stuck in my head because there are no lyrics.
Exactly.
My mind is clear now.
See?
Yeah, it's like a mind palate cleanser.
I like that, Mike.
Well, Mike, thank you for sharing your wisdom with us as always.
I hope everybody enjoys this episode of Community Call with Tina Owens and Sara Stender Delaney.
Sara Stender Delaney is the founder of Cirilla Sparkling Teas, and she is a really fantastic part of our community and had this great idea for a community call.
So I hope everybody enjoys.
Today, we are talking to Sara Stender Delaney, founder of Organic Sparkling Tea Beverage brand Cirilla and Tina Owens, Managing Director of the Nutrient Density Alliance.
Thank you so much for joining us, Tina and Sara.
Thanks, Melissa.
Hi, everyone.
Great to be here.
Great to have you.
Yes, likewise.
Thanks for having us.
Well, why don't we start off with some quick introductions?
Sara, let's start with you.
Could you give us a little bit of background on Cirilla Tea?
How long have you been at this and where are you now?
Yeah, thank you.
So I lived in Rwanda, which is a small country in East Africa in 2009, for just about a year.
And that's when I started working directly with farmer cooperatives.
I was actually helping to build a restaurant in the capital city of Kigali.
And I discovered Rwandan tea at that time, and it really changed my life.
I wasn't drinking alcohol and was just about two years sober at the time.
So instead, I would have hot tea, cold tea.
I discovered silver needle tea, started really diving into loose leaf tea, and just felt great.
And then when I moved back to the States, I continued working with folks in Rwanda.
I continue to go back today a couple of times a year.
We bring guests with us now.
We have a Crop to Cup tour.
And that was really the beginning of my journey, working directly with the farmers in Rwanda.
And then fast forward, starting to develop my own beverages here in Asheville, North Carolina.
Again, partly motivated by the fact that I'm not consuming alcohol.
A lot of people aren't, or they're trying to reduce.
And I saw that we could really use tea as a catalyst for change, for both consumer trends here in the US, but also to really impact socially and economically the great work that's being done in Rwanda and other countries.
Thank you so much for that.
Tina Owens, can you talk a little bit about what your role as managing director at the Nutrient Density Alliance looks like and what you focus on?
Yeah, thank you, Melissa.
The Nutrient Density Alliance is focused on engaging consumers and the benefit of regenerative agriculture.
So I'll go into this in a little bit more detail in a couple of minutes, but essentially there's a lot of movement in regenerative agriculture, but it's all back office and behind the scenes, not necessarily in a way that consumers can access in the grocery store, with a few exceptions.
And so we would really like to see a strong marketplace for farmers to convert to regenerative agriculture and to see that the consumer is there to meet them, but that demand as opposed to it just being something that's more for a company procurement process or what have you.
So I'll get into some more specifics here in a few minutes to introduce why this is critically important for the regenerative agriculture movement.
Thanks for having me here and giving me the chance to talk about it.
Excellent.
Well, let's dive right in with a quick disclaimer to put some guardrails around this conversation.
We will be addressing non-animal products only in this conversation.
Tina, can you explain that a little bit for our audience?
Yes, I would be happy to, and I actually have something I'd like to share here.
We are about broadening mindsets around the standard processes that cut across several ingredient and consumer product categories, and this is therefore general industry discussion.
So the intention today is to drive your own thought process about your existing nutrition and claims process, enabling your own positive ties to regenerative agriculture outcomes.
Cirilla is going to help us talk through what that looks like for an actual brand.
But as Melissa mentioned, we're not going to cover any specific regulatory landscapes like supplements or animal-based products because they both have additional guardrails for compliance that we're not going to cover today.
And this is not a substitute for regulatory guidance or other federal agency requirements that you would follow in your standard nutrition claims process.
So we just want to make sure everybody's clear on that as the baseline.
And with that, I will spend a chance to talk more about regenerative agriculture with you.
Excellent.
Let's start by talking a little bit about regenerative agriculture as a classification and as a movement.
Certainly, it's something that farmers have been doing for hundreds of thousands of years, but it's something that we've seen gain traction more and more over the last several years.
Let's start out with talking a little bit about the certifications that are available to CPG brands.
Tina, I think you also have some information around what's available and what some of the differences are in those certifications, because I think all of us, well, perhaps with the exception of the two of you on this call and folks who are really innately focused on regenerative agriculture, I think so many of us are still trying to sort of piece together where and how this fits in.
Yeah, so I'll share a little bit more about what the landscape looks like and what that means from a certification standpoint.
And the reason that this has started to feel so large and such a critical conversation and maybe something you have to work your way through and navigate for each company is because 58 of the top 100 food companies in the world are now stating they're doing something around regenerative agriculture.
And their collective sales are up over a trillion dollars at those companies.
That's not even getting to all of the ingredient suppliers, farming resources, et cetera.
And in fact, the regenerative agriculture movement has grown 130% in the last three years, with key brands like Pink believer, Nestle, Mars, General Mills, et cetera, jumping into that space.
But where regenerative agriculture acts as a sign for the consumer is through the lens of soil.
And so, Melissa, I had planned a couple of slides about how nutrition is tied to soil and then into the certification space, so I'll jump in from that perspective.
But what people and consumers are not realizing, or even marketing leaders, or those who even have existing regenerative ag programs, is that we have nutrient-deficient soils that lead to nutrient-deficient people that lead to chronic health disease.
And so starting back in 2015, year of the soil, held by the UNFAO, this data has started to become more mainstream in understanding how nutrition and soil health are linked.
And in case you've never heard this before, and it feels like some sort of internet conspiracy that the nutrition and soil or nutritious pie soil is that it's been depleted, I encourage you to look at some of the mainstream ways that you can learn about this topic, including National Geographic, New York Times, BBC, Scientific American and others.
And there's certainly a lot of data to be shared from a peer-reviewed research level or easy places to start if you want to understand more about this for your own health or what it could mean for your work in this space.
So moving into the certification landscape and also a little bit about retailers' requirements here.
You know, when we talk about regenerative certifications, it feels like a crowded landscape already because people hear about different elements of on-pack certification.
But it's actually very clear when you look at the, what unifies the regenerative agriculture certification space.
But some delineation here, you know, the two on the left, Land Market and Certified Regenerative AGW, those are both animal focused, versus the Soil Carbon Initiative and Regenerified Certifications, which are ag system agnostic.
So they can be an animal based product, so they can be in conventional regenerative, all the way up to organic regenerative.
Or there's those certifications that use organic as their foundation and require the organic certification and then additional metrics to talk about regenerative ag with consumers.
Which by the way, the organic systems are the ones that are the north star for everybody.
Those are where we all should be headed.
So viewing the regenerative ag movement as a funnel that helps farmers and agriculture get into this movement and then move along in the trajectory towards better outcomes for soils, human health, their own profitability, et cetera, is critically important to realize and recognize about this movement.
I have two retailers on this slide, Whole Foods and Walmart for different reasons.
Let's talk about how from a brand perspective, both are equally important.
Whole Foods has been at the leadership conversation for the organic natural products, non-GMO and now regenerative industry for decades.
And they are requiring third-party certifications for any on-packed claims as it relates to regenerative, or they have a checklist behind the scenes to ensure that you have third-party validation.
That's really what they're after is validated claims.
So Whole Foods is encouraging brands to bring forward regenerative agriculture certified products to engage with consumers, and they see that there's plenty of demand from their consumer sets for them.
Versus Walmart, which has announced its intention in 2020 to become a regenerative business.
And they have goals on significant acreage and ocean conversion to regenerative practices by 2040, but what's really notable about that is some of the early days of Walmart's Project Gigaton requirements over a decade ago.
I can draw a straight line from that to some of the global requirements on climate and greenhouse gas emissions that have been announced at COP in other conversations.
So it really matters what Walmart is saying about being a regenerative business and their intentions on conversion within the agriculture space.
So hopefully that helps set the stage for where some of the brands might look as far as third-party validation or why they would do so from a retailer landscape standpoint.
There's also significant research from Cartman that shows that consumers are aware of regenerative agriculture and then dating back to 2020 that the organic consumer has been aware of soil health at the center of their purchase intention starting at that time with over 80% of households purchasing one or more organic products and that they believe it's tied to better ecology, better nutrition and better flavor.
So the consumer is here and we're waiting for brands to meet them where they're at.
And I think now we're going to hear a lot more about that from a brand's perspective by tossing it back to you Melissa and also to Sara to talk about Cirilla.
Thanks so much for that.
Yes, let's dive right into Cirilla and talk a little bit about what role brands like Cirilla play in helping consumers buy into regenerative agriculture.
Certainly retailers like Walmart and Whole Foods Market play a big part in kind of pursuing that goal for their products and for their consumers, but we wouldn't be anywhere without our CPG brands embracing this movement and moving forward with that.
So why don't we move forward with the spotlight on Cirilla?
We're going to do a little bit of a case study just to help our audience understand what the opportunity is and what the mechanics look like.
Sara, could you dive a little bit deeper into your brand story and talk a little bit about where you've incorporated regenerative agriculture so far and where you see the biggest opportunity to grow?
Sure.
So I do want to just share that I grew up in a small town in Vermont, surrounded by farmers.
We had a big garden.
My mom was an incredible gardener.
We grew a lot of our own food.
We had neighbors and relatives who raised animals, had dairy farms.
I don't remember really shopping in a conventional grocery store until probably college.
Somewhere in my late teens, we shopped at local co-ops, farmers markets.
Even in the winter, it was like CSAs.
So I just want to frame it with, you know, that's how I grew up and I know that's maybe a unique kind of childhood and experience, and I'm grateful for it.
Just in case my mom's listening, she probably isn't, but she's probably outside right now.
But, you know, so for me, it's always been a lifestyle.
And I think, you know, it's part of my mission to make sure that everyone has access to quality food and beverages.
And, you know, I think that it's important that our children are educated about the sources of our foods and really has access to real whole foods and vegetables.
And so personally, I'm so excited about where the regenerative movement is going and really diving deep into the correlation between soil health and human health.
And I recently attended the RSFI conference in Denver, the Regen Investment Forum, and that's where I met Tina and a lot of other great activists in this movement.
And I'll be headed to the RSFI Women in Food and Finance next week in Atlanta.
Really excited about that.
So really diving into this, it's a passion.
I also think, you know, as a brand, it's tough for us to claim sustainability on an environmental level because we have packaging, we have freight to contend with.
As much as I want to say, we're choosing sustainable options with our packaging and ingredients, as much as I can do on the farm level to ensure that we're growing things in a sustainable way, that we're doing things on our farms where we can feed nutrients back into the soil.
But I think in terms of communicating to consumers, it comes down to really what's in it for me.
So for just about everyone, whether it's a retail buyer or a consumer at a store or shopping online, you know, all those other things are great.
We have an impressive social mission behind my brand.
We're doing a lot of work in even trauma healing.
We have a resiliency skills model.
We're certified Fairtrade women-owned organic kosher.
Our tea gardens, our rainforest alliance.
I've been involved in the Fairtrade movement for just about 15 or more years.
But really the consumer wants to know like, how is this going to make me feel, you know, today and tomorrow?
And what's it going to do for me?
So I think that's where we really need to focus on.
Really keeping the message pretty simple.
If it can be backed by data or any kind of labs and testing, which is what we're doing at Cirilla now, to show like here are some biometrics that we can prove are available, bioavailable within our drinks.
And here's how we think it's going to help you.
And here's why I think, you know, it's really important to be able to tell that story in a very simple way.
I mean, we all know shoppers only have a few seconds to make a decision, but I do think people are becoming more savvy and really taking more time to learn about the brands, to learn about the ingredients.
And again, I think if we can create a story that ties in the soil health, how it's directly impacting my gut health, I mean, gut health is a huge topic right now.
We're also looking at what are the biometrics related to longevity, mobility, brain health, hormone balance.
So those are just some of the things we're testing compounds within our ingredients to show how this product can help in those ways.
And then doing, you know, I know a couple of brands, I met one at the conference in Denver, they're doing side by side.
So they're looking at their product, which is 100% regenerative compared with a similar product, which is not.
And how are those nutrients showing up differently?
Tina, just a couple of minutes ago, shared some information around how consumers are becoming more and more interested in regenerative items.
What sort of consumer response have you seen in your travels?
How many folks are noticing that on the package and understand what it means?
I think for us, we only recently started using the words regenerative.
And you mentioned, and I do want to really like shout out and honor the farmers that have been practicing this type of farming for centuries.
I mean, it's an indigenous, ancient tradition.
And my concern is as development happens in certain parts of the world, that those traditions will be lost.
And as chemical fertilizers become more widely available, that less farms will be naturally regenerative.
So on the farmer's side, we're really trying to provide the resources and education and also access to markets so that the demand is there for the farmers to not only continue the regenerative practices but to also expand.
So in terms of how are we communicating to the consumer, I think we are going for the ROC label, so we will be getting that certification.
I do think the third party is very important.
It's easily recognizable.
It shows that we've been audited, that certain protocols have been met.
For us, we've always been rooted in our origin story.
So I think it's more like, do you know where this comes from?
Like, do you know, I know some brands maybe build the product and then build the supply chain.
For us, it started.
It started with the farm.
It started with the ingredients.
And then I created the product around that.
So it's a little bit different.
So it's just like so rooted in our brand DNA to show, like, here's how everything's growing.
Oh, hey, would you like to travel with us and come to Rwanda and see the farms for yourself?
So I think as much as we can tell that story and kind of bring people to the farm, whether it's virtually or physically, that's like, that's incredibly impactful.
And then people can see for themselves.
I mean, you can just, you can smell it in the air.
You can feel the difference when you're on a regenerative farm.
Let's move right into our case study.
And what we're going to do here is pull out a couple of ingredients from two different skews of Cirilla tea and walk through what it might look like to pull those ingredients out and talk about them more on the actual can itself and then perhaps elsewhere, depending on what the regulations allow.
So why don't we start off with how the USDA and FDA regulations determine where and when those things are mentioned.
Tina, could you weigh in on that?
Yes.
So what typically happens is that brands, especially small ones, are using the centralized USDA database for the standard nutritional outcomes that have been set by the government and they're pulling that through and really doing a mathematical equation for what they're going to show on their side panel, their NLEA nutrition label on the side of their product and what it means.
Now, what's governed on the side of this is about 150 bioactives that the USDA tracks as compounds that are required for human health, but there's also things where the FDA regulates claims around front of pet claims or unpacked claims around antioxidants, polyphenols, or if you need animal bases, omega-3-6 fatty acid ratios, and those aren't typically things that you would see here, but instead a brand would choose within the guidelines how they wanted to call them out on the front of their package.
So a lot of the conversation we're going to have today is around if I want to move one ingredient or all of my ingredients away from the USDA database and make a comparison between how my regenerative ingredients are grown and any nutritional outcomes that come out of that to what I'm doing today, which is from USDA database, what would that look like?
And it's the fact that Sara and Saril are going after RLC certification that made this particularly interesting for me because that is the gold standard within regenerative certifications.
And as she mentioned, having that third-party validation is critically important for consumers and to make sure that what's happening in the field regeneratively tied to nutritional outcomes has been validated at some level outside of the brand doing that work themselves.
So let me know where you want to take it from here.
Let's start with the ginger white tea skew and start off with ginger and talk a little bit about the USDA guidelines.
The ginger would be something that, if I understand correctly, that would be addressed on that side neutropanel.
And that's from the lens of the vitamin.
So we talked about in this instance, picking out something that people recognize, which would be vitamin C.
So ginger is well known for containing vitamin C, and therefore it would be something that is measurable within that product, and therefore vitamin C is something that would be shown on the side nutrition panel.
And so if I had a regenerative ginger product and I was finding that I had higher outcomes of vitamin C, how would I go about actually getting that on my side panel is really the question we hear over and over again at the Nutrient Density Alliance.
And so just in like a 30 to 60 second way, I want to do a high arc of how a brand or a company or an ingredient supplier could go about enabling that process.
And first it would be with third party verification, like we've already talked about with regenerative organic certification.
But really the question is, can I segregate that ginger into its own production stream?
Do I have enough volume that my supplier is willing to do that?
Or does my supplier already have a source of regenerative ginger that is large enough that I can pull from that and then ask for the nutritional data that's separate from what the USDA would give me as the standard?
In that segregated model, if I create a specification that is validated through a representative sampling program, so I've sent enough samples of that ginger volume into a laboratory that has validated that there are indeed different outcomes in that vitamin C content, and they agree that it's enough to go on the bi-panel.
Those laboratories are the key to this, so I've done that testing.
It's representative of the volume that I've sourced, and I have an NLEA bi-panel process that a lab has helped me enable.
Could you explain NLEA, please?
Yeah, so the Nutrition Labeling Education Act was the most recent update of what the bi-panel is for the requirements of how brands actually calculate what's on here, the order they put it in, where the emphasis is, et cetera.
And so laboratories, and I'm not making recommendations around laboratories, but I do want to mention one specifically that I think is helpful for the audience, which is Medallion Labs.
They actually have their whole platform of tests that they offer online with their costs detailed, including what it costs for them to do that calculation for you on the ingredients that you'd want to use for your side panel on your own product.
And so that makes it easy to lose.
Well, what if I do want to do additional testing around vitamin C?
Or what if I do want to pay somebody to do my side panel as opposed to just getting the calculated information out of the USDA database?
And so once I've validated that I have regenerative programs, I have ginger segregated, I've done my lab testing with a representative sample, we've updated the specification to include that higher vitamin C level.
Now the certificate of analysis that's passed through with every loss that goes into my back door at my production facility, if the vitamin C is on there, it validates that window has to be met in a certain percentage in order to uphold what a brand like Cirilla is putting on their side panel.
So if we project that out, vitamin C to other vitamins like zinc or magnesium or protein or fat or what have you, that is typically on the side panel calculation on foods, we can start to see how having that same type of third party validation and segregation model could enable us to make different claims on, you know, higher protein and wheat or something, where the calculation would actually show up on the side of my product.
So that's why we're using something that had the ginger with the vitamin C outcome to show how this could actually translate into any product for people that are listening.
Do you have any thoughts or have you seen any examples of how brands might be able to indicate to consumers what the usual amount of vitamin C, for example, for the ginger is versus how much there is in a regeneratively grown version?
So that's where there's some question within the industry right now, because the FDA and the USDA regulate claims around something that's meaningfully different from before.
And so you would need to look at whether there are specific guidelines on protein, for example, there are in order to call up those differences that have to be meaningfully representative of what the consumer is eating in their total daily nutrition intake.
And so this is where we get into the nuance of understanding the specifics around the ingredients that you're working with.
Ideally, if I have that calculation here, the consumer is at least picking it up and doing a side by side comparison with my competitors and seeing that my vitamin C is higher or whatever attribute is that is that's important to them.
Now, I might say on here, our nutrition is driven by regenerative practices come to our website to learn more, right?
So I don't always have to do that work on pack.
It could be just letting the consumer make a comparison based on how they're used to doing so and then telling them there's more to the story and that we've actually done the lab and scientific work to back up that that is true.
And one of the things you and I talked about, Melissa, is how does a brand know which attribute to choose?
And it varies by product.
So if it's based on what your consumers have already been trained to purchase around.
So if it's tomatoes, it's lycopene.
If it's blueberries, it's antioxidant.
You know, if it's grains, maybe it's protein, you know, like for soy, especially protein is key in consumer's mind.
And so it's really asking yourself, which key nutrient attributes are my consumers purchasing my product to obtain?
And then is my regenerative agriculture program causing a benefit in that area that I haven't bothered to measure, track, add, or talk to my consumer about because if so, I'm leaving top line growth on the table from my regenerative ag program and engaging consumers around their own health and that attribute.
And are those ingredients, tomatoes, blueberries, are those some of the ingredients that you've seen exhibit significantly higher nutrient density when they're grown with regenerative practices?
The answer is yes, but it's also specific to how long those fields have been in regenerative management because it grows over time and even some of the varietals that are used because a lot of the varietals in the food system today have been focused on quantity, not quality.
And so you might have the most regenerative soil in the world, but if you haven't chosen the right type, the right varietal to interact with that soil, it may not uptake as much of that nutrition as you would like.
And so the answer is academically mixed, but positive enough that we know that almost all regenerative programs should be looking at the four outcomes, maybe not in year one, but certainly over time.
As a leading researcher mentioned to me recently, when you look at the year to year differences, it's incremental.
It's barely moving the needle in some cases, but when you look at over a decade, it's significant.
And so the question is, are you seeing a significant uptake in something that is already part of your brand's core ethos or your consumer's purchase intent around your brand?
And if so, you should actively explore how to create a point of differentiation from your competitors by doing some meaningfully representative sampling to see if there's a there there.
And then maybe you do want to go down this road of segregation and additional specification and all of the calculations that we already talked about to bring that to life within your brand's long term.
Excellent.
So now that we've talked a little bit about the opportunities on the neutral panel, which is governed by the USDA, let's move on to the second part of our case study where we talk about the vanilla rooibos infusion, Cyrillis Q, which I have to mention is absolutely delicious.
So with something like rooibos, that's something that would be mentioned on the front of PAC.
And though that would need to adhere to FDA guidelines, what's the best way for a brand to approach something like that?
Well, so let's explain why we're talking about it being on the front and now governed by the FDA.
And that's because what you would talk about with rooibos is likely the antioxidant content.
And so antioxidant content are something that is more talked about in front of PAC, and there's rules governing that.
So you need to understand what those specifics are for your brand.
But again, if I am finding that my regeneratively grown rooibos has a higher antioxidant content, I can segregate that material, again, create a different specification for that higher antioxidant window.
And in this instance, we would strongly recommend, as I know Darilla is doing, working with someone that understands the FDA requirements around on PAC claims for those types of items and have an understanding of whether or not there's anything within the additional outcomes from the rooibos that could actually be called out on my side panel as well.
Maybe it's something magnesium or something else within the rooibos that ends up being calculated here, and then you're talking about the additional antioxidant claims on the front of PAC.
And so it follows a similar process, but it has a different regulatory body looking over your shoulder.
And so that's again, we're working with a laboratory that has an understanding for how these things are compiled, claimed and or litigated in the marketplace would be important to understand.
But if you know antioxidants are critical to why consumers are purchasing your product, and of course with tea, that's where consumers have been trained to go is to look at the antioxidant content.
You may find that it's critically important to bring that to life in order to draw new consumers to your brand or keep your competitors at bay and the consumers that are looking to purchase your product and understand what regenerative agriculture means to them and their health because they've already been trained on what an antioxidant means for their health.
So helping them access them while highlighting what brands like Cirilla are doing with third party certification, especially from RLC, is a critical point of differentiation to bring to the marketplace in this day and age.
Thank you so much for that.
Sara, what do you think?
Do either of those case studies mirror anything that you've been thinking about, or do they speak to any consumer response or questions or thought that you've seen in the marketplace?
Yeah, it's really helpful.
Really interesting, Tina.
Thanks for doing the deep dive on those two ingredients.
And I think when we as brand owners or when we're heading into marketing campaigns, it's so important to do an audit of the sets where we're trying to sell.
Really consider who we're selling to, what channel.
You know, I noticed a couple of beverages the other day.
I was looking in, I was in Walgreens, and a couple of beverages do call out the antioxidants on the front.
They're certainly not regenerative, not even sure, probably not organic, but it just got me to dig deeper on, like, what's backing that up, how many antioxidants, and then you can go down the rabbit hole of what type of antioxidant.
And I think we have to be careful, you know, as we're developing, the verbiage for our label is like, what is even recognizable to most consumers?
Do people know what L-theanine is?
I think they do now because some of the bigger brands are using it.
So I think too, it's like, well, okay, why is this important?
What's it going to do for me?
You know, the consumer wants to know what's the benefit of this.
And so for us as a brand, it's like we get to pick which categories we really want to dive into for functional benefits.
And I mentioned a few.
It's like, well, antioxidant properties, it can also be part of heart health, you know, heart health campaigns reduces inflammation, improves mobility.
We're looking at weight management because we know that catechins, caffeine, L-theanine, EGCG, those are things being called out on some big brands now and showing that those compounds can help boost metabolism, burn fat, things like that.
We just have to be really careful about how we communicate that.
And that's where working with an FDI specialist is so important.
We have someone here in North Carolina and she's amazing.
Her name is Frida and she offers her time pro bono as a part of the NC Department of Agriculture.
So she'll guide us like here's the words you can say, like is it high in antioxidants?
Is it a good source?
I mean, there's really nuanced words you have to work with.
And then if we can't call it out on the label, what are those, you know, Tina mentioned, what can we do with other marketing material, whether it's social media, geo-targeted digital campaigns, things online on our website.
If we have, that's where I think data C is so valuable.
We maybe have a subscription program on our website, even if it's not the biggest part of our sales base, like we're still able to communicate regularly, like here's, you know, here's how we're different, better and can really help you feel good today.
There's so much education to be done with consumers to sort of catch up with all of the efforts that folks like you are doing with their brands.
We only have a few minutes left here, but Tina, you have some really interesting information around what's next for regenerative agriculture with a nutrient density focus.
The first one that I have here is Gen Z.
It's, of course, a demographic that everybody is looking closely at and looking to appeal to.
Can you talk a little bit about what the opportunity with Gen Z is and their focus on Better For You by Better Production?
Yeah, thank you, Melissa.
And I'm so glad to be able to share this with folks.
This is actually research from Hartman that was published just a month ago on October 9th.
And so for those of you that are actually able to see what I'm doing, you'll be able to find an article called 17 Needs Driving Gen Z Food Choices.
And there were two categories of what they called out in here that are really worth noting.
The health and wellness piece about watching their parents struggle to unlearn toxic diet principles, and the better production where Gen Z has embraced the idea that more intentional production methods lead to food and beverages that are not only healthier and tastier, but better for the community and the planet.
So they've already internalized this information.
Now, what's key about this is people tend to look at Gen Z and say, well, but they don't have enough money or spending power yet or what have you.
They're going to end up in the better for you, food is medicine category a lot faster than the other generations did when they decide they want to become parents.
Full stop.
They're going to be looking at food as medicine for their fertility, better longevity, better management of their anxiety, et cetera.
And so you should look for the space to develop really quickly.
The other thing that's going on is there's massive leaps forward in food as medicine research space from places like the Rockefeller Foundation and the American Heart Association or multiple FreshRx or food prescription places that are finding in conjunction with insurance companies that they're saving millions of dollars on care for diabetes and other things.
So consumers are going to be primed by their insurers and by the broader healthcare landscape to look at food as medicine more closely and the National Institutes of Health and even the Veterans Affairs Department are doing work on food as medicine research and what it means for personalized nutrition.
And my most exciting one I can share is around tech where your wearables are going to tell you what your metabolic response is.
You're measuring your glucose, you're measuring your stress markers, etc.
Or there's even the possibility for your camera in your phone to be like an embedded spectrometer where you're scanning food and seeing what the nutritional quantity is on the fly or whether or not it contains things like allergens.
If you think that sounds like science fiction, I'm here to tell you.
Apeal already has in-grocery scanner beams that let you know if your avocado is ripe yet or not.
And that's the exact same technology.
It's scanning it at a molecular level, understanding what the nutritional value is, and sharing with you when that will be ripe.
And by the way, higher nutrient density also leads to lower food waste over time because that food lasts longer and you get more from it.
And then one last thing, you and I and Melissa talked about hidden hunger and hangriness.
So I'm just going to roll into this real quick.
Hidden hunger is driven by a lack of nutrition in our food.
And the United Nations FAO talks about the fact that when the quality of food that people eat doesn't meet their nutrient requirements, the food is deficient.
It causes hidden hunger.
And that's that eat signal that just stays on and doesn't turn off.
And there was actually a wonderful example of this in the National Institute of Health Library of Medicine.
It's called Changing Perceptions of Hunger on a High Nutrient Density Diet.
And they found that people over consume because their hunger directs them to eat more calories than they require.
And that it's an unpleasant experience to be hungry unless you're focused on a high nutrient density diet.
You can actually change your relationship with hunger by focusing not on calories but on nutrients and that you can actually eat less calories and be satiated.
The UNFAO has also found that obesity is tied to human hunger because that signal stays on and you're not getting what you need.
We tend to think of malnourished people as being, you know, thick thin and really weak and actually obesity is tied to the exact same factors.
So if you're feeling hangry, focus on nutrients.
You might actually be able to lean yourself out of that state and find yourself in a different relationship to hunger.
So thanks for letting me share it.
It's a fun step to share with people.
People really like hearing about that.
That blows my mind completely.
If we can appeal to consumers from a microbiome perspective, a hangry perspective, a fertility perspective, it's just so obvious to the consumer what that does for them.
So all of those points are fascinating.
Thank you so much for sharing them.
And I'd just like to thank both of you so much for joining this conversation.
Your contributions were so instrumental and hefty.
I think that it's a topic that we could probably do four or five more shows on, but I just want to thank you both so much for joining this.
Thank you, Melissa.
And I know Tina is also a farmer, has a farm, and I just want to, again, thank all of the farmers out there and just people who are on the ground in the field.
Actually, you know, preparing the soil, taking care of it, because we need them.
And I think that's maybe a part too, is talking more about, like, who's paying for the testing, like, who's helping the farmers expand their regenerative land as well, because we have to have a growing demand for the products they are maintaining that certification for.
But I think sometimes they're left out of the conversation, and I'm just so grateful we wouldn't have a brand if it weren't for these incredible producers.
That's an excellent point.
And thank you, Sara, for the opportunity and connecting me with Melissa and Melissa for having the conversation to share more about the Nutrient Density Alliance, and I hope folks check us out online at nutrientdensityalliance.org, because they can see a lot of the research I talked about today and understand what it means more for their own personal health, but also what it could mean for top line growth for their brand and regenerative agriculture.
Thanks again.
And one other thing I just want to mention, Melissa, because I noticed yesterday ROC, their website, for any brands wondering, where do we begin if we want to source regenerative certified ingredients, they do have a database.
I don't know how fully populated it is, but if you're a regenerative producer and you're not in that database, maybe reach out.
And then, you know, brands like yesterday, I was just searching on different herbs and teas to see who was listed in there.
It's quite good, very helpful, and it gives you the location and contact information for the farms.
Thanks so much and we'll see you next time.
That concludes another episode of the Community Call podcast.
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