Hello, and thank you for joining us.I am Melissa Travers, Director of Community here at BevNET Inosh, and I am so excited to welcome you to the Nombase Podcast.Be sure to check out nombase.com, the platform powered by BevNET, where you'll find our partner directory, job board and press release hub, and of course, this very podcast, which brings us all together today.Today, we have two of my favorite people and brands, Daniela Jensen, co-founder of Big Picture Foods, and Emily Griffith of Lil Bucks, talking about their funding journeys.So what options were available, why they chose the paths they did, and what they're looking forward to next.Funding dried up almost completely for emerging brands for a while, and it's still a challenge for early stage brands to finance growth.So, Daniela and Emily, thank you so much for joining.We're so grateful to have you taking us behind the scenes to help us understand how your brands are actually making it work.My pleasure, thanks for having us.Let's start off with a quick brand overview, just to make sure that everyone's completely familiar with the brands and the products.Emily, let's start off with you.Please tell us about Lil Bucks.Lil Bucks is America's buckwheat brand.We make crunchy snacks and super seed toppings from sprouted buckwheat, which is this amazing nutrient dense fruit seed, not a grain.We're on a mission to improve American diets by incorporating buckwheat in these delicious ways.I want to see buckwheat in every pantry in America.Then we're also giving organic farmers in the US an economic incentive to include buckwheat, which is this really wonderful cover crop in organic crop rotation.It gives them an economic incentive to grow this, improve their soil health, and improve the long-term nutrition of buckwheat that we are eating.I know Cluster Bucks.Are there two skews of Cluster Bucks now?Yeah.I have some right here actually.Cluster Bucks, we have our Lil Bucks line, which is a sprouted buckwheat crunch in different flavors that's used as a topper on smoothies, oatmeal, yogurt, salads.We also do food service, so bulk into restaurants with that.And then our Cluster Bucks line is what most people will see in retailers nationwide.So this year we launched it in Whole Foods nationwide and Target and a lot of retailers in between, but yeah, they're little granola bites made from buckwheat.They're actually sold in the functional snack set because they're like a superfood snack.For anybody in the audience who hasn't tried Cluster Bucks yet, you need to run, not walk to your nearest Whole Foods Market, Target, and a number of other retailers.We get so many snacks in it, nosh.You know, a lot of times I don't wind up buying them, but that's one that I certainly buy.They're just so, so good.Thank you so much, Emily.Daniela, we've had the pleasure of knowing each other for quite a while.Please tell us about Big Picture Foods.And let me also say that Big Picture Foods products are amazing, and your banana peppers and pepperoncini are unrivaled.I've never tasted anything so delicious.Thank you for that.What a warm welcome.So Big Picture Foods is a regenerative, organic, naturally fermented line of today, olives, peppers, capers, and we just launched Regen Olive Oil.I have a product quick to show.So we launched this refrigerated, fresh, raw product line in the perimeter.And our unique points of difference were that it was grown right and cured clean.So if you think about the way that most of these foods are typically processed today, they're using a variety of different chemicals, one being lye to accelerate the cure.We go back to those traditional old world ways and are really committed to bringing nutrient dense foods back to market and you'll taste the difference.And so we lead with flavor.Everything we make is super clean.We use only three ingredients, water, salt, and a splash of organic kosher wine vinegar to punch up those fermented flavors.Like I said, we launched in the perimeter.We spent the first two years kind of establishing our retail footprint and then moved into a line of center store grocery jars.These are exciting because we're bringing innovation to center store in the way that the products are cured because they use wild native cultures that are derived from the soil.To thoroughly cure them without the need for high heat pasteurization or additives or stabilizers, we don't need the kill step of the heat.So they are sealed.The jars are sealed at a lower temperature for a shorter duration of time.So if you're buying our jarred product, you'll get that same crunch that customers love about the fresh items.You have so many points of differentiation.Before we get into the next point, I'm curious.How have you found education?It's so much information to share with consumers.Is it packaging?Is it the website?How do you get that information out to people?I think it's all about sampling.We need to get these products into the mouths of our customers so that they understand that these products are very different.And once they taste them and they're able to experience that, they're like, oh my God, why is this the best olive I've ever had?And then it opens the door for you to be able to explain, oh, well, how we grow our products and how we cure them are very different from a typical commodity goods supply chain.And it opens the door to all of these really awesome storytelling opportunities, like our climate sequestration.One acre of olives, of regenerative olives store a ton of carbon versus the conventional equivalent that release a third of a ton of carbon.So you get to play to your audience and tell a really captivating story.Well, I'm sure for both of you, your stories, but then also just the product itself, they both taste delicious, which of course is maybe one of the most important things for a food brand.I'm sure that those factors helped fuel your growth and helped you secure financing.So let's get into it.Emily, could you walk us through your business trajectory from emerging to where you are now and the financing decisions that you made along the way?Because I think those two things are really important to discuss together.Yeah, definitely.And I think my financing journey very much mirrors the knowledge that I was gaining in the industry and how our products developed.So happy to.But yeah, so I launched, came up with the idea for Lil Bucks when I was living in Australia.I was 24 years old, fell in love with the crunch of sprouted buckwheat and was just blown away by it very innocently.It was like, oh my gosh, this isn't a thing in the US yet.I will bring it to America.How hard could this be?I was a graphic designer, so I designed pretty packaging, launched it in, actually the first iteration was not pretty at all and didn't make any sense, but that's how we all get started.But yeah, launched it in, got my shared kitchen user license in Chicago, launched it into markets, fitness festivals in Chicago was really how we got started in 2018.I'm very much a learn by doing person and getting the concept out there.And especially being something that also needs education and is unfamiliar to the American consumer, that it was very, and me not coming from CPG kind of did have to just test and learn and see what people's reactions are.And so with that, I bootstrapped for the first year.I, when I moved back from Australia to Chicago, I freelanced full-time, made the product in commercial kitchen at night and sold it on the weekends.It was insane, but a great way to learn and come going into 2020.So end of 2019, we did get Lil Bucks into the Whole Foods Midwest region.So that was like, I've made it.We're gonna be huge.I've achieved greatness.Ready to bring, you know, all the things.So we got, you know, real packaging, no more stickers on craft paper bags.But with that, I was like, we need to raise the money.So I did my first friends and family round for 250K.And I want to even emphasize with friends and family, it's like very extended friends and family circle.Like it's like my best friend from high school, my best friend from college is dad, who I met at a wedding once, like my husband's like company's founder, what, you know, like all these people that you're meeting once and just talking to anyone.And there are people, even if it's not your immediate circle that are entrepreneurial and willing to help.I think that's an important distinction.Like you really combed your network.It's not like you were just talking to the folks you see at, you know, Thanksgiving.Right, because like, I don't know, thinking back to me being in that position, if someone told me like, oh, I raised 250K, or like, I know people that raised 2 million in a friends and family round.Like, you're like, well, they must be rich.And that's, you know, sometimes they are, and that's really nice for them, but that wasn't the case here.And I think often it's not the case.So don't be discouraged by that.But yeah, there's a lot of networking to be done with that.And can I ask you another question about that 250k from friends and family?Were there, what did the chunks of funding look like?Was it like a couple of 50 grand and then the rest piecemeal?If there's a way to describe it.Oh yeah, totally piecemeal.You'll find in my journey, it was pretty piecemeal up until this year with our first institutional financing.But yeah, the big one was my husband's company's founder, CEO.It's kind of one of those things where you do meet some people that become wonderful mentors to you and this person saw my idea and was like, I'm going to bet on this person.He put in 100k, gave me the 100k check at a Christmas party to like, but yeah, it was pretty funny.I'm like holding a 100k check.Like, okay.Also introduced me to their corporate attorney who has this passion for working with women founders and entrepreneurs.So was very lucky to have that mentor in the early days and get connected with an attorney who has, I'm still working with to this day and has guided me and encouraged me quite a bit.And then, so that was great.Because then even in that friends and family realm, I had a lead and then a lot of 10K checks, a lot of 25K checks to piece together.It was like 265K actually.Wow.Wow.So in the 250K, was that largely in part to fuel the Whole Foods Market lunch?Yeah.So the whole plan, this is literally, I closed it December 19th, 2019.And, you know, stress, we were set to launch the Lil Bucks line sets that sprouted Buckwheat Crunch line in the Whole Foods Midwest region in March of 2020.So I was getting packaging, like kind of the working capital raw materials for this launch.And then also I trained up 22 brand ambassadors across the Midwest region, because it's super vast, like everywhere from like Nebraska to some stores in Ohio, Michigan to Kentucky.And my whole thing was like the early playbook of people that have made it and started in a region of Whole Foods was sampling like hell, getting the early turns in awareness and growing from there.But yeah, we launched in March of 2020 a week in the pandemic sweeps out the world.So that whole plan, all the investment and training and materials that went into this out the window.So that was, and it was crazy, of course, for everyone.And at that time as well, getting my first smack in the face of the ultimate smack in the face of learning how retail works.And like I thought you just got in a Whole Foods.So like launches on March 15th, it just appears on the shelf on March 15th everywhere.Clean cut?No.You have to like monitor merchandise.You know, we all, you know, if you're in this space, you know that now.But that taught me, okay, we need, with my sprouted buckwheat line, it's these little sprouted buckwheat toppers.That takes a lot of education.We do have to sample.So that's a long game.But how can we get buckwheat?You know, I want to scale this faster and in a way where we can be in retailers nationwide and we don't need Emily or someone like me there to sample it.So the snacking, snackable concept of something made with buckwheat as the base came in.So that was really when Cluster Bucks was born behind the scenes.That's what we were working on.And we worked with our Whole Foods Midwest buyer to be like, okay, that Lil Bucks line needs sampling.So here's Cluster Bucks.I tried to get both in and they're like, we'll do a swap.Like nice try.So we got Cluster Bucks in a year, exactly a year later, March 2021.And in April, 2021, we closed our Republic crowdfunding campaign, which I launched three days before, I think it was like December 28th, total Hail Mary.Because at that point I had squeezed, you know, felt like I had squeezed everything I could out of the friends and family network.It was a scary time, 2020.And the extended FNF network was capped.So I went to Republic.That was a great opportunity, I think, especially for an early brand and a consumer brand, because those, I think we had like 240 people invest anywhere from 150 bucks to 10 grand.And those people all become advocates for your ambassadors for the company and feel like they're bottom because they are.So that was huge.And then with that, because we could have a public-facing campaign that was reaching beyond my personal network, it actually got the attention of some high-net-worth individuals and we closed 650k outside of the Republic campaign in May 2021.So that was exciting.But even then, yeah, there was still a lot to learn with Cluster Bucks.My first tagline of the product line was adaptogenic buckwheat clusters, so that was a bit aggressive for retail and I needed to come up with something that was a little more approachable.So now they're called gut-friendly granola bites.It's a lot more straightforward.Why it's good for you and buckwheat is one differentiation at a time, even if you have a lot.But then, yeah, a year later, and if you can't tell, this is all coming in very piecemeal over the years.There was never one clean million dollar seed round.I ultimately before Series A round closed 1.7 million dollars, but all of this in a lot of different ways.Well, you mentioned your crowdfunding campaign was a Hail Mary.We have a question from Kimberly Lau, who wanted to know why you decided on crowdfunding.How did you decide on crowdfunding?When you say Hail Mary, what do you mean?I mean, I decided on it for, I think it just seemed like again, because I had squeezed everything that I felt like I could out of my friends and family network 2020 really scary year to also go to some of the people you know and be like, invest more.And I did try still, but that wasn't feeling like a viable path, but we still weren't, you know, and I was talking to venture CPG and all that, but especially being a young solo female founder and not having coming from CPG prior.I, you know, the female parts, you know, BS as we all know, but, or hopefully, but I do get like a young person who didn't come from CPG delusionally trying to have the Quaker Oats of buckwheat, which we will.Yeah, I wasn't about to close like $3 million from a CPG venture thing then.So crowdfunding was a great flexible way to get, I feel like it's a place where you can tell your story more and there's a great story to tell with buckwheat.And that just had an amazing response.And it was a Hail Mary because, yeah, was running into walls everywhere else.I spent all of 2020 trying to bring in more because I knew the Lil Bucks Whole Foods launch in March 2020 was a bit of a flop.I lost a lot of money and just that brand ambassador thing that I thought was like the ticket to heaven.And so I was raising all year, not having any success.So, and then learned about crowdfunding through Republic and was like, wow, let's try it.And it worked.And it sounds like not only did you get some funding, but you got some really committed folks to your brand and the high net worth individual financing.Okay, so that's so crowdfunding.And then you also worked with Angels in IU Ventures.Could you explain those?Yeah, so then I had the one Angel group that kind of discovered me through the crowdfunding campaign and then later in the year invested.And then a year later in June 2022, ran out of money on our wedding day, but still got married, had a lot of fun, but was presenting that month to IU Ventures.So I went to Indiana University, IU, and a lot of universities will have their little Angel groups or even in the city, like Chicago, Hyde Park Angels.There's a lot of those.So because again, I wasn't having a lot of success with institutional financing groups or VCs, I was really focused on Angels.And I think, yeah, the IU Ventures group was awesome, really supportive of wanting to support an entrepreneur coming out of their alumni network.So we closed about 250K from them.And then I brought in like a couple add-on investments through the remainder of 2022 and into all of 2023.I brought in a few more add-on checks from my current cap table.So my current group of investors.And then in 2023 was when we got the word that Cluster Bucks, which we launched it in the Midwest region in 2021.We're going to go from two SKUs in the Midwest to four to five SKUs nationwide.Dream come true.That is a huge opportunity.Still haven't made it, you know, made it.Yeah.And I understood that by this.But you know, and that was a great thing.But was like, oh, how are we going to get that working capital for a national launch?And I got it in two ways because again, investor money had dried up.I did a loan, a working capital loan with Steward Regenerative Financing.So because we source our buck, and we use Sunflower as well directly from Regenerative Organic Certified Farms.This financing group, they're focused on loans going out to regenerative businesses that are having a direct impact on regenerative agriculture.So that specialty group was a good thing for us to look at for the core ingredient, which is like over 50 percent of our products.And then on top of that, there's more though, packaging, all those other ingredients.And so we did a care note, which is called a COGS.Elliot Began from TIG talks about it a lot and has some really good resources.So that's how I found out about it.And so the care notes of COGS to retain equity.And it's almost like a loan with an equity upside, but basically I raised 400K on it, but it's like there's a payback period of five to six years.You pay back as quarterly payments and the payment is calculated as a percentage of COGS.So it's a good driver to make sure you keep your COGS in relation to your gross revenue low.And that was another one though that I brought to my investor group.Nobody's fighting, nobody's investing.I had the dark night of the soul at that point where I thought maybe it could be toast, but ultimately my current investors came through on the full note.So it was really just proving out an absurd amount.I think I had 27 scenarios of forecasting and cash flow models to show that it would work and all these different things.Is that what happened?So it was pretty insane, but did what we had to do and we got it.That sounds totally insane as you're talking about getting married while you're in such a precarious spot.Just for example, sounds completely insane.Later on, I'll ask you both how you maintain momentum and keep on going.Emily, thank you so much for sharing all of that.Daniela, I would love to ask the same of you.I know that there are a number of similarities between Big Picture Foods and Lil Bucks.You're both regenerated of brands, you're both mission driven, and I'm sure many other similarities.But there are some dissimilarities as well in terms of the way that you source the product, your production cycle.Could you walk us through your business trajectory and how funding coincided?Yeah, I think that probably the biggest difference is, and it probably sounds even more crazy, is that my husband and I both came...So we're a husband and wife team.We also have two other partners.Our co-packer is partnered in our brand, and we have an outstanding mentor who was the founder of a variety of different Mediterranean products and has deep relationships throughout Greece and Turkey.So the four of us came to this venture, each with a different background.I had a strong sales marketing.I've built brands of all shapes and sizes and was a previous founder, founded, scaled and sold a company in the past.So I brought the entrepreneur spirit to the team where Chris was working as the president of a variety of brands inside of UNFI.And so I think coming from the industry already, we went in with different assumptions.And I think that we knew right away that there were a list of priorities that we would, would not do.And it was really important to me as we entered into this as husband and wife that we were like, OK, we're not going to finance our home.Like we're not going to take on personal liability just because businesses are really volatile.And everybody, I encourage any founder on the call to understand like how far are they willing to go because know that when things are good and then don't cross over that line.And maybe that line wiggles a little bit.But know your boundaries just because you can get sucked in.I think initially we bootstrapped the business.And so we launched in 2020.We used the pandemic to organize our supply chain.Could you explain what bootstrapping means?Is that like credit cards?So kind of all of the above.It's founder capital that you infuse into the company in any which way.So for us, we took a lot of money out of our savings.And dare I say, our kids' college funds.Thankfully, it's all going to be okay.And there are times where you don't know that, so it gets scary.But yeah, maxed out personal credit cards, things like that.We put in a total, not we together.Chris and I put in a total of, I think, 200 and really felt very leveraged, which was a lot for us.And then the other partners came in.I think we, in terms of founder capital, we put in a total of 400-ish to get the business going with the goal of, and that wasn't even to get it going.We did this in tranches as the business really needed it.And it was like, dire straits, put it on the credit card.The hope was that we would be able to purchase containers.So I'll give you a little bit of background on our business model.We are growing in Turkey and Greece, and we have to reserve raw materials.And so we are thinking and forecasting for what is either in the ground or on the tree, what is fermenting, because we're slow curing and using natural fermentation.So the process is, if you're an olive, six to nine months.So not only are you thinking about when it's growing, but then you have the fermentation time on top of it.And then you are thinking about containers on the water and the time that that's going to take.So it's a very long production cycle, and you need resources when those containers leave.So the way that we had worked with our coman, we were very fortunate to be able to purchase finished goods.So they were working with us, giving us extended payment terms, you know, and certainly ask your coman for support and things like that, just as you get off the ground.But they were giving us extended payment terms so that we could get those containers, the raw materials purchased.We paid them when the containers went on the water.We hoped that by the time that product was sold and we were paid, it was time to make the next container payment.That always didn't happen.And so when we were in a pinch, we went to debt financing, which is your typical first go.There are companies out there who, you know, these are all unsecured loans because we were not willing to use personal collateral.Settle and Wayflyer, Settle gave us a $100,000 revolving line of credit.We borrowed against it.We paid it back.We borrowed against it.We paid it back.And the more times you do that, the more they will give you.You're building trust and you're establishing a relationship.Wayflyer, we used once as like a lump sum.The strength of these are that they're unsecured debt and they're there when you need it.The challenge is it's expensive money.We did that for a bit and we, like Emily, I can't say enough good things about Stewart.They were an amazing partner.We borrowed 600 and something thousand dollars from them.So it was a significant amount of money.And we were in a real pinch because Whole Foods had came to us and said, we want to take you guys national.And can you launch by this date?And we said, we can.We have the raw materials.The challenge is I need the cash to get those materials on the water in time to meet your reset dates.And so we were scrambling.And even when you have approvals from a national chain like Whole Foods, you know, it's not like we hope we're going to get into Whole Foods one day.I'm like, here's the purchase order.I have it in hand.Like who's going to give us this money?And Stuart really stepped up to the table and I cannot say enough about them.And the beauty is they are mission aligned, which means that they are really trying to help foster your business.And so the advantage is the terms are far more favorable to brands that fit in their value set.So that was a huge win for us.Other things that we did to obtain funding.So asking friends and family was a real difficult challenge for us because these are people who have been in your life for a really long time and there's no guarantee.And I had a hard time doing that.And my husband would say to me, this is an opportunity that we're bringing to them and you need to stop thinking about it like you are asking them for something.And I think he was right.He had gotten that advice from a colleague of his who was interested in investing in Big Picture Foods.And we ended up saying no, because I said this is someone that we are going to see regularly for the rest of our lives.And I will not feel good if this doesn't go the right way.And there's just no guarantee.So everybody has to make those own decisions for themselves and their brands.Opportunities where I did feel really good about saying yes to were, we worked with a variety of different consultants because it was just Chris and I operating the business.And so when consultants are kind of under the hood or behind the scenes, they have full visibility into your business.They know your P&L.They know they're in the inner workings.And when they see the business as an opportunity and they come to you saying like, hey, I really love what you're doing or I'd like to invest.So everyone that we were working with knew that we were actively looking for capital.We were talking with any fund that was mission-aligned.We were just trying to network, asking, who can you introduce us to?And in asking who can you introduce us to, they raised their own hands to say, we believe in what you guys are doing.And one of them was actually really unique in the sense that we owed them consulting fees for work that were rendered, and they were willing to roll those payments into a larger note.And the way that we ended up doing that was a safe agreement.And at the time, it sounded really easy, right?It's safe.It's meant to be so safe if you don't know it.It's a simple agreement for equity.It's a Y Combinator, really light on the contracting side of things.And it's great when you're going to have a future fundraising round, which we anticipated because all along, we were looking to raise roughly a million dollars.So the goal for us was, two years into the business, we had done the bootstrapping, we had done the debt financing, and we were ready for what I would call our seed round.And our seed round was going to be a million dollar raise.In doing this, we ended up taking those notes early as a safe.And the challenge that we ran into was, we ended up not doing the funding round.And if we had, we would have had a valuation in association with that funding round, and it would have been a formal valuation.Instead, Big Picture ended up with an acquisition and an earn out.So things became a little bit tricky in terms of that agreement and how you transition when there is an earn out.So just think about, at the time that we did that, I never thought acquisition was certainly not on our radar.So it seemed like the right thing to do.So Big Picture Foods has recently been acquired by Atalanta.You mentioned that Atalanta, initially, that was a funding conversation.Did it turn from an investment conversation into an acquisition conversation?Thank you, Melissa, for keeping me on track there.So I will say that, just to back up a little bit, in talking with a variety of different funds and strategic mission aligned groups, we decided that we were going to purposely look at companies that we saw as opportunistic for not necessarily even an acquisition, but they would be interested in our products.So Atalanta came on our radar because they are strong in cheese.They are part of the Gallup Global Organization.You know, they're the largest specialty importer in the US.So there were a lot of natural synergies there.And we were thinking they have an awesome business already established.They have the machine, if you will, for how to take products like ours and get them to market.So that was a great opportunity.And we identified two others that we were going to go to and ask them if they wanted to participate in our seed round.And, you know, we got into pitching to all three of them.And just there was a natural synergy with Atalanta that the conversations evolved in the way that, you know, we were really excited for.And it ended up moving at one point from a, we really love what you guys are doing.And while we would be happy to invest, you know, we think that we could go further faster if there was, if you were part of this group.And it was directly, Big Picture Foods was aligned with their 2025 goals and objectives.So it made a lot of sense for both companies.And that idea of further faster was something that really resonated with us.I think the time was right and we were, if we thought back to our initial objectives, it checked all of the boxes for what we wanted to do with this business.Initially, when we were getting ready for the call, you mentioned the long production cycle.That's certainly a challenge.But also the fact that the category that you're in is a pretty established one with players like Davina, who own almost all of Whole Foods products in that space.So it sounds like that was a big consideration for moving forward with Atalanta, because they do have that established business.Yeah.We were thinking about, do we take this small product portfolio and do we try to over the long term, it's the David and Goliath thing, do we slowly just erode market share and build shelf presence, or do we partner with a large established organization that has the power already in the market, and do we just plug our products?And I think the example that I was thinking is all along, Chris and I built this machine, and all we needed was money to put into it.And the reframe that I needed was, no, actually they have this machine already dialed in, and we have the products to put into it.So that was a good aha moment for us.So I would like to know what were some of the things that when you were telling investors or folks who were helping you with financing, what were you telling them about your brands that made their eyes light up and made them wanna get behind you?Was it something about the way that you were growing your business?Was it something about the product?Was it something about you?Emily, let's start with you.What were some of those things that you realized when you said them, oh, this is meaningful to people who I'm asking for money from?I mean, the line that always gets them is we're building the Quaker Oats of Buckwheat.So I really think a lot of it is the vision, the long term vision for the brand and seeing Buckwheat in every pantry in America.And truly believing that at my core, I think people and investors, they're people too, and they can feel that.So there is that, A, just like the brand and the vision for it and the person or people behind it.So I know a lot of people in the early days, like it's like they're betting the jockey, right?It's like, I'm horrible at phrases.It's like bet the jockey, not the horse.I mean, it makes sense.You bet the jockey, yeah, bet the jockey, not the horse.One of my impressions of that.I bet the jockey.Anyways, so they bet the jockey, I'm the jockey.And then another thing was the supply chain, like the interesting unlock we made by, we, this is a mouthful, but we built the world's first regenerative organic certified buckwheat supply chain in partnership with our farmers and mills.And this is the beauty of not knowing what you're doing coming into an industry.It turns out that's a really rare thing to do with agricultural products.So by going directly to the farmers, there's margin advantages, there's marketing advantages.It's a lot more work in the background, but that was interesting to people of seeing this end-to-end business in the buckwheat space.And then also, I think just for us, something that resonated was actually having an understanding of how the business' financing would work and understanding how cap tables work.And again, I don't want that if someone told me that when I was starting, I'd be like, shut up.I came from marketing and design.But I got my hands on a cap table, just spreadsheet of how my angel investor convertible notes would convert into a Series A.And I played around with that for years and just trying out different scenarios, double-clicking in the formulas to understand how things are converting and why.And I remember looking at people who could just understand cap tables and understand what would play out when certain financing mechanisms would hit.And I was like, how could they possibly know that?And that's the level that I, I mean, there's still a lot to learn, but that's a level I got to.So when we did get to the point of talking to an institutional financing, we could speak the language.And I think that really helped.Daniela, how about you?Was there what would you say about Big Picture Foods or that people would understand about you and the brand that helped you secure funding?I think Emily's transition was perfectly said there.You really need to understand your business metrics and be able to speak to them like the back of your hand.And for us, the key selling features that made everybody be like, oh, wasn't necessarily that it was our product margins first and foremost.Like, I think that the industry, depending on the category, it varies, but you, it's really hard to operate a business if you're not above like 30.And we were in the upwards of the higher 50s.So that was very appealing, product margins.The second one was the fact that we were ROC and the only one in a large established category that has seen very little innovation.I mean, this is a sleepy category, but a huge category.And so the turns are slower.Everyone was interested in sweets and snacks, but for us, we were like, these are commodity goods with no innovation.And the fact that we are bringing newness to the category was unique and that we had this first-to-market mover advantage.That coupled with our supply chain.So the way that we built the business was to meet demand.We knew that we didn't want to be a small regional player.It was really important for us to turn the lights on as that interest grew.And so we had a variety of different co-ops that were basically waiting to be onboarded.If you think about the way that we work with farmers, we work direct with them.So unlike a commodity goods supply chain where you have a variety of different people who are all kind of putting their hands in the pot for a certain percentage of their margins, you know, jewelry is seeing this.A variety of different industries are using that same model where you're working direct and you're taking out all of the middlemen.That opportunity allowed us the ability to ferment on site for those four to six months.The farmers work directly with our outstanding QA teams in Greece and Turkey.So not only did the farmers get paid for the raw materials, but they also got paid to ferment the product.So now they're earning dual income, which is really enticing to other farmers.They're like, whoa, let us in on this.So there became this interest from other farmers who, basically we put them in a queue where as demand scaled, we could onboard and certify.Our ability to have a capacity, I think present day, we utilize less than 10 percent of our current capacity.So we have the ability to scale to roughly $50 million.That to a large organization was like, whoa, you're ready to go.There is no pain points, if you will, with building demand.So those were some of the unique opportunities or things that made people interested.And I'll tell you one more thing.I wish that someone had told me that the magic number with funds, and Emily, I don't know if you feel the same or if your experience was the same, but I talked to so many organizations who were like, love what you're doing, that's awesome.Come back to us when you're at 5 million.And we were, you know, our run rate was at like, you know, just under two.And I don't know why it took me so long, but it sounds like five is the magic number for funds to engage.Emily, is that consistent with your experience?So save your time, save their time.Like if you aren't there yet, I would definitely pursue those other opportunities to get you to that point.It's always great to be networking.And I will say that ask people for, who should I reach out to?Can you make an introduction for me?Because if they give you the name of someone and they introduce you, that is so much more impactful than you trying to find this person on LinkedIn or cold or what have you.So don't be afraid that when you're talking to people to ask for help, we've all been in these positions where we need a little help.So the one thing that I underestimated was the amount of help that people are excited to give.That was a point that actually both of you, I think, made that when an investor says no, that's one of the questions you can ask if they say, like, I love your brand, just that it wouldn't work out for them right now.That's something that you would ask investors, like, well, do you know anybody else I can talk to?Yes, I would ask them that.And I would also ask them, like, what is a sticky point for you?What made you say no?Because knowledge is power.The more that you understand, like, oh, you're margins.If somebody just told you point blank, then you could go and work on that, right?So it's like, you just want the information of why.So be relentless in getting feedback.Yeah, I think that's a huge unlock and was a mindset shift for me as well when talking to a lot of venture funds in the early days because it is a really interesting idea and like could be really big.It was attractive to a lot of them, but that is their job is to invest at certain stages.That's like they have duties to the people that funded their funds.So they want to network early and get to know things.But I think in the early days, they'd be like, no, it's too early.I'd be like, they're chicken.They just don't get it and they're not risky enough, whatever.But it's like, no, understand where they're coming from and what their goals are and also the parameters that they're working in.And if they really aren't your leader for you, they likely have someone else whose objectives fit more with the stage of the business you're in, and they could help you.I have a question from Kartik Das of DUSRA.He wants to know, is there anything that you would change in terms of what you took at any stage?Were there ever any investments or finance agreements that you took at any stage that maybe you wouldn't do again?This would be getting really nitty gritty, but anyone who's doing a care note, I loved that mechanism and it worked well.But part of the care note, it's like a COGS agreement to retain equity.So there's the loan part paid back as a percentage of COGS over time.But then there's this upside to it that's interesting to investors that they can have the right to invest a certain percentage of what they loaned.So if they loaned 100K and it's 50% warrant, they could put in 50K at a certain valuation that is set in the COGS agreement.And because I was desperate, I made the warrant 80%, which is really, really, really high.And it worked out fine.They're all current cap table investors, but that was something when we did have an institutional series A round, I was like, oh, that's a lot.Cool.But it worked out.I mean, it wasn't that much, but in the grand scheme of things.But that was something that I have been really good over the years, even when I was small and we're still small, but just didn't have a lot of options.But I would never take predatory equity agreements.Like some people are like, I'll give you 100K for 20% of the company.Get out of town.You don't really believe in this if that's the deal you're trying to make.So I was pretty good at that, but like, you know, had a desperate moment.And I think with the wrong, you know, again, it worked out, but just be careful on those decisions.So all those little numbers.They add up.Daniela, how about you?Yeah.Mine isn't necessarily funding aligned.And I know that that's the subject of this call, but I'm going to dare to say it otherwise.I think the expression, you can have it fast, you can have it cheap, or you can have it done right.And you can pick two of those three things.That stays with me.And there are a lot in both this business and my prior business.I think I, in hindsight, I wish that I had chosen quality over time and cost, because sometimes, more often times than I even realized without the hindsight, you really need the quality.And so things like choosing a lawyer who, you know, that's, it's, when you look at that sticker fee, you're like, remember that you're paying for their experience and the number of deals that they have done.And all of that experience directly is going to impact.So, you know, I feel really fortunate in our M&A process to have the guidance that we were given to help us troubleshoot and make sure that we weren't misstepping and that things in our agreement were spelled out right, or that at least we were thinking about them and going into it eyes wide open saying, yeah, we'll take that risk or that, we're not worried about that, but at least have a lawyer who's asking you those questions so you're not blindsided.And I think, you know, aligning with groups or people that are one step ahead of you.I think when we went into this, all of the accountability partners that I was, that I wanted to talk to, you know, I was like, I want to talk to these $10 million brands, even though I had done $200,000 in sales.You know, we just weren't there yet.And so surround yourself with someone who is one step on the ladder rung ahead of you, because they're going to give you the information that you need.I would invest time talking with brands that were further down the pipe from me.And yes, it was great.But time is your, like, we all need more time.And so if you are having to make those choices, find the groups and resources and accountability buddies and other founders that are, you'd be surprised at what you will learn that will impact your next phone call from those teams.Great, candid advice from both of you.And thank you both so much, really, for being so candid and sharing the inner workings of how you got to where you are.Daniela Jensen, Big Picture Foods, and Emily Griffith of Lil Bucks, I really can't thank you enough for joining Community Call today and giving us a behind the scenes peek into how you're growing your businesses.So thank you so much for joining us.And for everybody else, we will see you next time
